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john dee

GLNF has Problems with its Grand Master

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Re GLNF - its a suspension not de-recognition - therefore both/dual is accepted. There is no need to resign from or the other.

I am GLNF and UGLE and SGL. I was in France on Friday at an Installation meeting and welcomed with open arms. No problems.

hopefully come October 16th things might improve with Stifani - IF the current French Court Order stands

(however- dont hold your breath)

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At the last meeting of the Grand Lodge of Ireland on 2nd June 2011, the Grand Master announced that a serious situation had arisen in the Grand Loge Nationale Francaise. He asked for, and received, permission from Grand Lodge to act as necessary during the interval until the October 2011 meeting, including suspending recognition of GLNF. He said he would be liaising with the GMs of England and Scotland re this matter. I have not heard any decision yet, but will post any developments announced at the October meeting of GL.

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All;

I have continued to watch the developments in France with interest. (having a personal interest as I have a number fo English freinds resident in France who are members of lodges on both sides of the channel, and because I wish to move to France soon)

As a reminder, if you wish to see waht is going on, then go to this blog (a french masonic Blog written in english) -Mike highlighted it a while ago..

LML in EnglishToday's post is a quite moving one from a brother who is a founder and WM of lodges both in England and France

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Merry Xmas to all Br.: here on the forum

@ George: Don't be in a hurry to join/visit the GLNF yet. It is a mess. I met French brethren in April this year who discreetly told me to wait a bit as there were certain "internal issues" that needed to be settled. At the time I wasn't aware of the problems that were present in the GLNF. I was a bit surprised at that and asked my WM about it, (back in April) and he told me that "yes" there were certain issues but they were internal so I could technically visit if I wanted but it would be best to wait till things became settled. The choice was up to me. So I decided to wait. Since then the situation has developed into a soap opera (latest info I heard was that the provincial GL of French Polynesia has ceased to exist and all lodges were placed under direct supervision of GL. In its place the brethren there have constituted a new GL!!!)
Now recognition has now been suspended so that it is for me. No visits to french lodges possible for the foreseeable future. Doesn't bother me too much, but my lodge has a French member who has just been passed and now can visit other lodges and he is stuck in limbo. He visits France regularly for work but he can't visit a lodge. Life can be hard sometimes.

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@seekerof truth:

yes, I know: I have not visited French Lodges since this blew up. My French (and English, resident in France) masonic Freinds are really upset with the whole thing. It's a mess.

When I do move to France (planned within the next 2 years, I will continue with English masonry anyway (It's only a half day trip on TGV/Eurostar to get to London:

Hopefully the mess will be clearing up by the time I get there and France will have either formed a new GL or sorted out the hierarchy of the GLNF...and got itself re-recognised.... but these things take time.

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The three Home Grand Lodges held their annual tripartite meeting in Dublin last week. The Grand Lodge of Scotland has withdrawn recognition of the GLNF with immediate effect - http://blogs.lexpress.fr/lumiere-franc-macon/wp-content/blogs.dir/693/files/2012/07/image.jpeg


The UGLE will present its recommendation of definitive withdrawal of Recognition to the next meeting of the Board of General Purposes in September. The third party to the tripartite meeting, Ireland, participated in the decision but at this point there is no official information as to their position.

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Not quite correct, John, at least not according to the Grand Secretary's letter that I have before me. The BGP has already made its decision to put forward a proposal to Grand Lodge at the 12 September Quarterly Communication. The UGLE decision will be made then.

Most certainly the GLoS and GlOI will follow suit; GLoS having just put in place its suspension of recognition, in preparation no doubt.

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Trouillogan (18/07/2012)
Not quite correct, John, at least not according to the Grand Secretary's letter that I have before me. The BGP has already made its decision to put forward a proposal to Grand Lodge at the 12 September Quarterly Communication. The UGLE decision will be made then.

Most certainly the GLoS and GlOI will follow suit; GLoS having just put in place its suspension of recognition, in preparation no doubt.


The wording of that letter dated 17 July from the Grand Secretary is also quite clear - that members of the UGLE who also hold membership of the GLNF must choose between one or the other.

The UGLE requires a vote at the next regular meeting of GL but it would be unusual if the BGP Report and recommendations were not accepted as written. The GLoS only got in first because the Grand Master Mason has the authority to make that decision without consulting first.

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Trouillogan (18/07/2012)
Not quite correct, John, at least not according to the Grand Secretary's letter that I have before me. The BGP has already made its decision to put forward a proposal to Grand Lodge at the 12 September Quarterly Communication. The UGLE decision will be made then.

Most certainly the GLoS and GlOI will follow suit; GLoS having just put in place its suspension of recognition, in preparation no doubt.


Not true. GLOS have withdrawn recognition, having suspended it last year. I'm sure GLOI and UGLE will follow suit.

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Yes, quite right, I should have read the whole thing. The GLoS letter starts off with suspension of recognition and then later says recognition is withdrawn with immediate effect.

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Gents, Just to highlight for you that the move was agreed by all three of the "Home Grand Lodges" at their recent tripartite meeting, no Grand Lodge will be "following" another.

All that is different is the mechanism that each Grand Lodges uses for implementing such things, whereas the GM Scotland can decree it himself, the GM England has to put it to a vote of Grand Lodge and as always the Grand Master Ireland keeps these things private within his own Grand Lodge.

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The new Grand Chancellor of the UGLE has also sent a letter dated 18 July to all Grand Chancellors and Grand Secretaries of Recognised Grand Lodges informing them that the reasons for the BGP recommending the withdrawal of recognition of the GLNF will be given in the Board's Report.

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MMH has recently issued clarification of the recognition status of the Orders administered from there
  • At the Quarterly Communication of Grand Lodge held at Mark Masons’ Hall on Tuesday 13th March 2012, recognition of the G.L.M.M.M. France was withdrawn and all inter-visiting is now stopped

  • Great Priory of the Temple – Remains in amity with the Grand Prieure des Orderes Unis pour la France

  • Grand Conclave of the Order of the Secret Monitor – Recognition withdrawn

  • Grand Imperial Conclave of the Red Cross of Constantine – Remains in amity with the Grand Imperial Conclave for France

  • Grand Council of Royal and Select Masters – Recognition withdrawn

  • Grand Council of the Allied Masonic Degrees – Recognition withdrawn

  • Grand Senatus of the Ancient and Masonic Order of the Scarlet Cord – District of France in abeyance

  • Grand Priory of the Knights Beneficient of the Holy City – Remains in amity with the Grand Prieuré Rectifié de France

Wayne

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Apparently a member cannot simply resign from the GLNF – it is more complicated and does not work that way. It is similar to the Grand Lodge of Scotland - i.e. once you join, you are a life member.


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I have redirected my post to this thread from my topic GNLF:
Having read another post stating that relations have been restored between Michigan Freemasons and the Shriner's, begs the question to me concerning GNLF. As an inexperienced Mason I do not pretend to fully the situation in France, however it appears a new style of Association of Lodges has been formed, why is it that investigations cannot be undertaken to establish, that their Freemasonry is compatible with UGLE in other words regular, and then we can recognise the new Grand Lodge. It does seem to me like the situation within GNLF is irrepairable........I hope I am not displaying too much naivety.

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For what it's worth, there IS another GL in France that is already classified as regular but is unrecognised. My personal feeling is that the chances are more likely that an existing regular GL is more likely to be afforded recognition before a new one formed out of discontent (however justified the discontent may be).

But what do I know? It's not my decision.

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Indeed, the other GL in France being referred to above that is considered regular (but never recognised by UGLE) was in fact for many years recognised (in amity) with many of the GLs in the USA. This came about because of American military based in France during WWII. This was the situation for many years. Eventually after much pressure they switched amity to the GLNF. There is a long saga about all of that and more pertinent it came up again in the USA just a few years ago! I will not go into the details. Suffice to say there are now again some US GLs that would like to once again recognise the original GL in France that they were in amity with for many years. This is a matter that the UGLE may well now be taking into consideration before any more mistakes are made on recognition in France. Originally it was the Grand Orient of France that was in amity with the UGLE but this is not likely to be restored. It will be interesting to see what is decided upon in England when the September GL meeting takes place and if any GL (even the new one) will ever be recognised again in the future in France.

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Bootlebuck1 (27/07/2012)
why is it that investigations cannot be undertaken to establish, that their Freemasonry is compatible with UGLE in other words regular, and then we can recognise the new Grand Lodge.

'Recognition' is not quite as simple as having regular working practices. Recognition involves some very specific criteria and for good reasons. The procedure is outlined in the UGLE Book of Constitutions under 'Basic Principles for Grand Lodge Recognition'. There is also a very insightful paper in AQC vol 117 'UGLE's External Relations 1950-2000: policy and practice' by a recent Past Grand Secretary on the vagaries involved.

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Here is a very good research paper that explains the background of Freemasonry in France and also includes the details of the predecessor of what eventually became the GLNF. - http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/bernheim10.html

It will be useful to be aware of the credentials of the researcher Bro. Alain Bernheim, who was born in Paris and since 2002 a French resident in Switzerland. He was made a Mason in 1963, belongs to the Swiss Grand Lodge Alpina and was elected WM of Lodge No. 30, Ars Macionica (Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium) in 2006, and is a honorary founding member of the Grand Lodge of Mauritius. He is a 33°, Inspector General Honorary of the Supreme Council (SJ) USA. Visitor General Honorary and Chapter Knight of the Great Priory of Belgium, and a member of the Royal Order of Scotland. The Scottish Rite Research Society (SRRS) made him a Fellow and presented him with the Albert G. Mackey Award for Excellence in Masonic Scholarship in 2001. He was elected a member of the Masonic Brotherhood of the Blue Forget-Me-Not in 1996 and a Blue Friar in 2007. In 2011 he was elected a member of Quatuor Coronati Lodge of London.

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john dee (20/07/2012)
Apparently a member cannot simply resign from the GLNF – it is more complicated and does not work that way. It is similar to the Grand Lodge of Scotland - i.e. once you join, you are a life member.



A GLNF member can resign, as the secretary of a GLNF Lodge I've just completed a dozen or so resignation forms, including my own.

I understand that the GLoS have a scheme where if you pay so many (10 I think) years worth of GL fees you become a 'Life Member' & don't have to pay GL fees again.

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