Resignation or drop out of Wardens

[Sentience 64]

Has any research or record been maintained of how common the resignation or dropping off the ladder of Wardens is?  From conversations, it seems that quite a few WMs have ended up either having to do 2 years in the chair or have had to go through the chair again because a Warden dropped out. 

[Jaybee 0]

I had to step in 4 years running when after  a couple of meetings the JW was never seen again.  My own view is that they were not suitable to be Master of the lodge and sitting as JW could see that unless they did something they would be Master in 2 years.

We also have a high drop out rate of EAs - probably as a result of their being recruited by 2 enthusiastic brethren.

There is always a shortage of MMs for positions and brethren are put into the sequence of positions with no thought as to their eventual suitability for Master.  The end result is that about half of our Masters are quite good with about half of those being PMs recycled.

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Jaybee

[Sentience 64]

Indeed.  Most of our PMs have gone through the chair twice now with probably 4 of us left to go and its looking ominous for the next two years.  It'd be interesting to see if there has been any research into the problem (if it is a problem) and whether it is a sudden realisation of the amount of work required as WM and a perhaps an irrational fear that they aren't up to it?  

[eastbeast 7]

On 11/19/2017 at 9:00 PM, Sentience said:

Indeed.  Most of our PMs have gone through the chair twice now with probably 4 of us left to go and its looking ominous for the next two years.  It'd be interesting to see if there has been any research into the problem (if it is a problem) and whether it is a sudden realisation of the amount of work required as WM and a perhaps an irrational fear that they aren't up to it?  

I have heard a lot of people say they are worried about being able to do the Master's role, partly because of the amount of ritual to memorise. Do we place too much emphasis on the aspect of memorisation of our ritual?

For example, why do we ask someone to repeat an obligation, give them that obligation and expect them to remember what they have just promised to keep?

Another reason why members drop out is the time they are expected to give to Freemasonry might be more than work and family can allow as they progress.

I believe all of this was covered in the past, but it does require revisiting regularly. If we do not, as an Organisation, adapt we will not survive. It is all very well saying we have survived for 300 years already and will survive a lot longer yet, but the World is changing and has changed more in recent times and at a faster rate.

Organisation. From the word Organism. A living, changing thing.

[Jaybee 0]

> partly because of the amount of ritual to memorise.

Locally things are much more casual these days with the WM often reading parts of the ritual particularly when new in the chair. 

I had to step in the other day for a double passing as WM when the incumbent was unavailable on a few hours notice.  So I farmed out all the floor work and kept the ritual book open.   It all went smoothly.

 

[Sentience 64]

1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

> partly because of the amount of ritual to memorise.

Locally things are much more casual these days with the WM often reading parts of the ritual particularly when new in the chair. 

I had to step in the other day for a double passing as WM when the incumbent was unavailable on a few hours notice.  So I farmed out all the floor work and kept the ritual book open.   It all went smoothly.

 

I'm not happy with ritual being read.  At my Installation, I did the full wording for all progressive officers, followed by a 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd and 3rd in consecutive months.  I would never have dreamt of reading any of it and I'm sure the PGM would have had a hizzy once he learned of it.  If a WM is struggling, there is no reason why they can't simply open in the degree being worked and then hand over to a PM to do the ceremony.  The WM can then continue with other business and the risings before closing the Lodge.  

The IPM should know what ceremony is being done and be ready to step in in the event that the WM suddenly becomes unavailable.  In the event that both are unavailable, then in those circumstances, I can accept the ritual being read by an unprepared PM.  The floor work would surely have already been allocated?

[Trouillogan 166]

On 17/12/2017 at 11:31 AM, eastbeast said:

I have heard a lot of people say they are worried about being able to do the Master's role, partly because of the amount of ritual to memorise. Do we place too much emphasis on the aspect of memorisation of our ritual?

For example, why do we ask someone to repeat an obligation, give them that obligation and expect them to remember what they have just promised to keep?

Another reason why members drop out is the time they are expected to give to Freemasonry might be more than work and family can allow as they progress.

I believe all of this was covered in the past, but it does require revisiting regularly. If we do not, as an Organisation, adapt we will not survive. It is all very well saying we have survived for 300 years already and will survive a lot longer yet, but the World is changing and has changed more in recent times and at a faster rate.

Organisation. From the word Organism. A living, changing thing.

Let's just look at some of those issues.

Memorisation.  This takes commitment and anything worthwhile in life does need that that kind of effort.  I realise there are business and domestic pressures such as never before but the time taken to concentrate away from those pressures does pay dividends in personal stress relief.  Those who have been there know it well!  If you have memorised the work, you will be able to look the candidate in the eye and really communicate with him; if you are continually glancing at a book, you cannot do that and it's unfair on the candidate as well as being a poor example.  I've seen a third degree where all the working officers used tablets - it was horrific, ghoulish even!  Under some USA jurisdictions, there are no ritual books; all is learned mouth to ear, even today.

Persistence.  If people drop out because they cannot manage the work, then I would suggest they were not given sufficient information about this significant aspect.  Part of which is the need to study what is behind the work you are doing; parrot-like recitation doesn't cut the mustard, as you need to understand the meanings, lessons and examples you are supposed to convey.

Longevity.  You are absolutely correct in that freemasonry needs to adapt in order to survive.  It has been adapting and changing throughout its existence and that is how it has survived.  If you compare the work we do now, the way we conduct our meetings, the lodge arrangements and so on, with how things were done 50, 100, 200, 250 years ago you would find the lodge meetings unrecognisable but, at the same time, the core values have remained unaltered and that is the important part.  I would say that for that to happen is down to the hard work and assiduity of our members.

Organisation.  From ad hoc free-standing, occasional lodges in the seventeenth century, through Grand Lodge organisation in the eighteenth, unification, provincial structure and continued dispersion throughout the British Empire and procedural standardisation in the nineteenth, vast expansion with dedicated premises in the twentieth despite the existential threat of political conflicts, to openness and with greater public awareness and an almost total absence of press criticisms in this, the beginning of the twenty-first century - all this shows how the organisation has been continually adapting to the needs of the day.

By the way, whatever GL (repeated by provinces) say about reductions in membership, remember, this is a fraternity; it is not a numbers game.  This is a legitimate part of adaptation and adjustment to today's needs.

Enough already!

[DavidGoode 39]

Spot on, Trouillogan, as always. 

[cemab4y 0]

Interesting

[mindmagic 40]

There's a difference between working open-book and reading the ritual. I've just completed my years in the Chairs of Mark and RAM and always had my own reprint of the book open - but I didn't read from it. I'd rehearsed the ceremonies so many times at home that I knew almost all of it. But I'd rather glance at the book if I have a momentary lapse than be prompted, which I think creates a worse impression in candidates. However, while you have plenty of room on your table at Mark Masons' Hall, it's not so easy at Freemasons' Hall, where the WM has very little room to put a book, and also for some reason the Rulers in Craft seem to be less flexible about the use of books than those in other orders.

Having a book or prompt cards is relatively easy for the WM and Wardens, but it doesn't work for floor officers. Deacons have to memorise their work, but by the time you get to JD in Craft you should know most of it anyway. Other orders like Mark require more memorisation.

[Not quite so Uninitiated 11]

On 18/12/2017 at 10:08 AM, Sentience said:

I'm not happy with ritual being read.  

This is all fine and dandy if the Ritual is performed well.  But for some parts, IMHO, it is better to be read and right than memorised and wrong.

Obligations are a case in point - surely it is better that the Obligation is word-perfect first time, than wrong, or repeatedly prompted?  After all, we ask the Candidate to repeat that Obligation, and seal it on the VSL.

I've been very fortunate in my various Ceremonies,  in that the Master (reigning or acting) has been very good - but I've also witnessed some very poor ceremonies when visiting.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Not quite so Uninitiated

[Sentience 64]

38 minutes ago, Not quite so Uninitiated said:

This is all fine and dandy if the Ritual is performed well.  But for some parts, IMHO, it is better to be read and right than memorised and wrong.

Obligations are a case in point - surely it is better that the Obligation is word-perfect first time, than wrong, or repeatedly prompted?  After all, we ask the Candidate to repeat that Obligation, and seal it on the VSL.

I've been very fortunate in my various Ceremonies,  in that the Master (reigning or acting) has been very good - but I've also witnessed some very poor ceremonies when visiting.

I've never heard ritual being read any better than someone that has tried to learn it.  Reading it requires the deliverer to take their eyes from the Candidate and immediately signals a sense of "I'm just doing this because its part of the ceremony" to me.  I'd much rather someone attempt to deliver the ritual from memory.

[bod 25]

Not all jurisdictions do it from memory - some read it and don't allow memorising

[Sentience 64]

4 hours ago, bod said:

Not all jurisdictions do it from memory - some read it and don't allow memorising

Which out of interest/curiosity/astonishment?

[bod 25]

One I know from personal experience is Denmark

There are others I know of from many years on these forums, but not personally experienced

[nymaso3 21]

Funny enough I'm in the opposite position. Long line in my Lodge and I was looking to join a "Fast Track" Lodge in order to be more involved with the ritual. Long story short, I haven't been able to find one Lodge in the Greater Manchester area nevertheless I keep hearing that quite a number of Lodges had to close this year due to not enough members. 

[cube 1]

nymaso3, it's a shame that you live so far away. I'm a Preceptor in a Monmouthshire Lodge and would metaphorically  "bite yer 'and off " to "Fast Track" here!

[Sentience 64]

5 hours ago, bod said:

One I know from personal experience is Denmark

There are others I know of from many years on these forums, but not personally experienced

What, that members are banned from memorising ritual?  Never heard anything so ridiculous.  What do they do to make sure Brethren haven't memorised it?

[wayne cowley 17]

14 hours ago, cube said:

nymaso3, it's a shame that you live so far away. I'm a Preceptor in a Monmouthshire Lodge and would metaphorically  "bite yer 'and off " to "Fast Track" here!

Will have to have a word with the Sec of your lodge to come along again - not been there for a while

 

Wayne

[mikevie 4]

Quote

Not all jurisdictions do it from memory - some read it and don't allow memorising

I have also seen this in other Constitutions, including my own. While you are not forbidden here to memorise the ritual it is recommended that you read it so as not to get it wrong. Also to prevent the ritual from being learnt wrongly and thereby changed along the way. 

Also consider that nowadays very few schools teach their children to recite text as was done in the past. The basic skills for memorisation are not being taught anymore.

How many times have we seen someone perform the ritual so badly that you wish someone would hand him a book and say "read it!"? Likewise how many times have we seen someone reading the ritual without even making eye contact with the candidate? In my opinion there are pluses and minus to both memorising and reading.

Speeches are read in politics and business, many parts of the Church service are read, so why not ritual in Lodge where it is possible? Obviously izt shoudl also not detract from the floor work e.g. a JD or SD reading from the book while perambulating.

[bod 25]

20 hours ago, Sentience said:

What, that members are banned from memorising ritual?  Never heard anything so ridiculous.  What do they do to make sure Brethren haven't memorised it?

That barely dignifies a response as its an extrapolation of what was stated to a ridiculous extent - and what pleasure do you derive from being so rude and dismissive?

UGLE doesn't have a monopoly on how masonry is practiced, your limited worldview would probably benefit from taking your head out of your bubble

[Sentience 64]

On 22/12/2017 at 4:16 PM, bod said:

That barely dignifies a response as its an extrapolation of what was stated to a ridiculous extent - and what pleasure do you derive from being so rude and dismissive?

UGLE doesn't have a monopoly on how masonry is practiced, your limited worldview would probably benefit from taking your head out of your bubble

I assure you it wasn't meant that way.  It was meant in simple terms as how do you prevent somebody from memorising something.  I don't see how you can.  It would surely be in the realms of thought control.

[Sentience 64]

On 22/12/2017 at 11:36 AM, mikevie said:

How many times have we seen someone perform the ritual so badly that you wish someone would hand him a book and say "read it!"? 

Speeches are read in politics and business, many parts of the Church service are read, so why not ritual in Lodge where it is possible? Obviously izt shoudl also not detract from the floor work e.g. a JD or SD reading from the book while perambulating.

Personally, I have never wished someone would give the book to someone that has clearly tried to earn the ritual but is struggling.  You can tell if somebody has made an effort to learn the ritual and I'd far rather watch that, no matter how good or bad it is, than it being read.  In fact, the day I belong to a Lodge that reads the ritual from the book, is the day I leave, as it will be another step on the ladder of eradicating tradition.  Now before that upsets anyone, it is my subjective view.  I come from a working life of discipline and standards.  Words such as can't didn't exist in the vocabulary of people I served with.

[cube 1]

16 minutes ago, Sentience said:

Personally, I have never wished someone would give the book to someone that has clearly tried to earn the ritual but is struggling.  You can tell if somebody has made an effort to learn the ritual and I'd far rather watch that, no matter how good or bad it is, than it being read.  In fact, the day I belong to a Lodge that reads the ritual from the book, is the day I leave, as it will be another step on the ladder of eradicating tradition.  Now before that upsets anyone, it is my subjective view.  I come from a working life of discipline and standards.  Words such as can't didn't exist in the vocabulary of people I served with.

That is a very noble sentiment and one which those of us who have not had your career cannot question..

But we "also serve who only stand and wait"?

Unfortunately I have found that the attempted monopolisation of freemasonry by some former service personnel to be rather condescending at times?

 

[lewis 21]

6 hours ago, cube said:

by some former service personnel to be rather condescending at times?

 

From a former serviceman. Can't means won't. Won't means jail.....................