How many theories on the origin of Freemasonry have you heard?

[Russell Holland 0]

Mike Lawrence (10/05/2012)

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It might also be helpful if you could cite the document to which you refer, then we could all broaden our knowledge.

I am short of time now but bob c refers to it here

http://forum.thefreemason.com/Topic37307.aspx?

[Society of No-Homers 0]

Allegory is not there to hide secrets its there to achieve the exact opposite - to make something easier to access and understand through the recital of an easily understood story. Do the Biblical parables hold hidden secrets? No of course they don't, it is accepted that they are stories to teach moral lessons. Why then should masonic allegory be any different - especially when it is specifically stated that it is a system of morals veiled in allegory.

[Russell Holland 0]

Society of No-Homers (10/05/2012)

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Allegory is not there to hide secrets its there to achieve the exact opposite - to make something easier to access and understand through the recital of an easily understood story. Do the Biblical parables hold hidden secrets? No of course they don't,...

I am astonished. It seems quite clear that parables are to ensure lack of understanding - lest the outsiders benefit.

Mark 4

10And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

[Torrentius 0]

bob c (10/05/2012)

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To me the origin of Speculative Freemasonry may not be as straight forward as we think.

Absolutely.

For me, one of the strengths of Freemasonry, is that so many different traditions filter into it. It may not be possible to prove demonstrable links between Speculative Masonry and Operative Masonry/ Templar transmission theories/ mystery plays e.t.c. but it makes for a far richer and stronger institution, which promotes research and study. Surely one of the objects of Freemasonry.

After a recent visit to Rome, I've been reading up on Mithraism, having literally stumbled into a Mithreum and been struck by how much it reminded me of a Lodge room. I had seen it mentioned in Masonic works several times and never really looked into it, however there are striking similarities between the cult of Mithras and Freemasonry.

To single out just one example, Initiates (there were seven grades) refered to each other as Syndexioi..."united by the handshake". It's impossible to say if this is where our methods of recognition came from but it at least establishes a precedent that much of what we practice could have been "cobbled together" from far older traditions.

[Russell Holland 0]

Torrentius (10/05/2012)

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.... there are striking similarities between the cult of Mithras and Freemasonry.....

Quite so. Cautes and Cautopates have one torch (column) up and one torch down just like the wardens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cautes_and_Cautopates Perhaps that is why we are taught to be Caut-ious.

And Mithras has a covering (cloak) of the stars just like a Freemasons Lodge

So how were such rituals preserved into Masonry?

It may also be worth noting that the Mithraic initiate was literally washed in the blood of the bull. This is the only origin that I have found for the concept of being washed in the blood of the lamb. As far as I know there is no such blood washing imagery in Judaism.

[Scientia 2]

Hi Russell,

There is something about the High Priest being spattered by the blood of a lamb and also the same blood being burnt on the altar of incense. I can't remember which book / ritual this is in though. Sorry. I will try to find it and let you know if I do.

[yorksmason 6]

Russell Holland (10/05/2012)

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Torrentius (10/05/2012)

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.... there are striking similarities between the cult of Mithras and Freemasonry.....

Quite so. Cautes and Cautopates have one torch (column) up and one torch down just like the wardens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cautes_and_Cautopates Perhaps that is why we are taught to be Caut-ious.

And Mithras has a covering (cloak) of the stars just like a Freemasons Lodge

So how were such rituals preserved into Masonry?

It may also be worth noting that the Mithraic initiate was literally washed in the blood of the bull. This is the only origin that I have found for the concept of being washed in the blood of the lamb. As far as I know there is no such blood washing imagery in Judaism.

Torches and columns are two completely different things. The wardens columns do not point down but are laid horizontally and Freemasons lodges do not have a covering "cloak" of the stars. So where are the striking similarities?
Oh, and cautious comes from the Latin "cautus" meaning careful.

[Torrentius 0]

Russell Holland (10/05/2012)

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So how were such rituals preserved into Masonry?

Who knows ?....that's the point I'm trying to make. I think the spread of culture and ideas is far more subtle and complex than we would perhaps like it to be. As Humans we instinctively look for a link between cause and effect... A leads to B leads to C etc. and most of us are uncomfortable with ambiguity.

I think that is why some Freemasons find it difficult to accept that we will never arrive at a definitive origin of Freemasonry and what is worse, (for them) it doesn't really matter.

[Lew Finnis 6]

I have read that Christianity largely replaced Mithraism as the religion of the ordinary soldiers in the Roman Army, especially from the time of Constantine so it is quite possible that some Mithraic traditions became adapted/absorbed. No proof, of course, just supposition!

[Russell Holland 0]

yorksmason (10/05/2012)

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Torches and columns are two completely different things.

They look pretty similar to me particularly if a light is put on top of a column.

The wardens columns do not point down but are laid horizontally

Perhaps there has been some adaptation for the convenience of the ritual.

I rather like Cautopates who holds his torch down to represent the setting of the sun - rather like the Senior Warden. And Cautes who holds his torch upright might represent the midday sun. Food for thought!

and Freemasons lodges do not have a covering "cloak" of the stars.

Some rituals include something like: The covering of a Lodge is a clouded canopy, or star-decked heaven, where all good Masons hope at last to arrive. .

Oh, and cautious comes from the Latin "cautus" meaning careful.

An interesting question!

Cautus: past participle of Cavere - to guard. Were Cautes and Cautopates who accompanied Mithras acting as body guards? Possibly so.

[Russell Holland 0]

Torrentius (10/05/2012)

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... we will never arrive at a definitive origin of Freemasonry and what is worse, (for them) it doesn't really matter.

That may well be true if Masonry is purely moral and social in its functions.

On the other hand Masonry may be more than a moral and social organisation. If so, understanding the various origins might help any interested brethren to decode the allegories and perhaps achieve what was intended by the ancient brethren.

[Torrentius 0]

yorksmason (10/05/2012)

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Russell Holland (10/05/2012)

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Torrentius (10/05/2012)

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.... there are striking similarities between the cult of Mithras and Freemasonry.....

Quite so. Cautes and Cautopates have one torch (column) up and one torch down just like the wardens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cautes_and_Cautopates Perhaps that is why we are taught to be Caut-ious.

And Mithras has a covering (cloak) of the stars just like a Freemasons Lodge

So how were such rituals preserved into Masonry?

It may also be worth noting that the Mithraic initiate was literally washed in the blood of the bull. This is the only origin that I have found for the concept of being washed in the blood of the lamb. As far as I know there is no such blood washing imagery in Judaism.

Torches and columns are two completely different things. The wardens columns do not point down but are laid horizontally and Freemasons lodges do not have a covering "cloak" of the stars. So where are the striking similarities?
Oh, and cautious comes from the Latin "cautus" meaning careful.

Hang on....don't get steamed into Russell. It was me who said there were striking similarities.

First of all, there are huge differences. Mithraism is a religion, Freemasonry is not....so it is difficult to compare them fundamentally but some of the details did strike me as similar....

The cult was only open to men,
The Temples were windowless, even when constructed above ground,
It was divided into seven grades or degrees,
They identified each other by some sort of handshake,
The worshippers faced each other across the room (very unusual in any religion)
They employed a square, free-standing altar in the middle of the Temple,
Despite it being a very popular cult, Mithrea were never built to seat more than 30-40
Feasting was an important part of the ceremony.

There are others but I would stress again that I am not suggesting a direct link....just that the MO of Freemasonry was alive and kicking long before it took its current form.

[yorksmason 6]

Hang on....don't get steamed into Russell. It was me who said there were striking similarities.

First of all, there are huge differences. Mithraism is a religion, Freemasonry is not....so it is difficult to compare them fundamentally but some of the details did strike me as similar....

The cult was only open to men,
The Temples were windowless, even when constructed above ground, The rooms at Grand lodge have windows
It was divided into seven grades or degrees, Freemasonry has 3 degrees
They identified each other by some sort of handshake, How else? What other method could be used?
The worshippers faced each other across the room (very unusual in any religion) As you said,freemasonry is not a religion
They employed a square, free-standing altar in the middle of the Temple, Not in a Freemasons Lodge in England
Despite it being a very popular cult, Mithrea were never built to seat more than 30-40 Lodges in England can seat in hundreds
Feasting was an important part of the ceremony. feasting follows the ceremony in Freemasonry,not part of the ceremony

There are others but I would stress again that I am not suggesting a direct link....just that the MO of Freemasonry was alive and kicking long before it took its current form.

I think we must have different definitions of "similarity"

[Torrentius 0]

Russell Holland (10/05/2012)

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On the other hand Masonry may be more than a moral and social organisation. If so, understanding the various origins might help any interested brethren to decode the allegories and perhaps achieve what was intended by the ancient brethren.

I agree with you...but I think it is possible to explore and take meaning from the variety of possible origins, without having to establish an unbroken "paper trail", back to a single point in time and say Yes....that is where it all started !.

Is the function it originally served more important than what it means personally to us today ?

[Torrentius 0]

yorksmason (10/05/2012)

I think we must have different definitions of "similarity"

Indeed. You seem to be confusing "similarity" with "exact replica in form purpose and intention"

Use your imagination !

[Russell Holland 0]

Torrentius (10/05/2012)

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I agree with you...but I think it is possible to explore and take meaning from the variety of possible origins, without having to establish an unbroken "paper trail", back to a single point in time and say Yes....that is where it all started !.

The "authentic school" seeks the paper trail of organisations. Personally I am more interested in tracking the soul and spirit of Masonry. The current outer form may not be particularly well-suited to its purpose.

Is the function it originally served more important than what it means personally to us today ?

Is the original purpose still present even if poorly served?

For example, if the Freemasons lodge does indeed extend from E to W and N to S and from the centre of the Earth to the Heavens, what is the impact of Masonic ritual?

[Mike Lawrence 3]

Wow! Some strong stuff being debated here!

But here is another thought!

What ever pre-1717 Freemasonry, did or didn't do, was or was not, it was re-branded and post 1717 quicky became something entirely different.

Ritual was changed completely.

Lodge rooms were introduced.

Infastructure was developed.

Whatever beliefs, tenets, practices, usages were taken into the post-1717 organisation, there meanings were quickly dropped or lost and within 10-20 years the whole face of Freemasonry changed, it became formalised and it probably changed beyond all recognition from what the likes of Elias Ashmole would have recognised.

Therefore, it was developed along new lines and I believe, by design, it moved away totally from operative superstition.

By the way, I have read and studied many of the Old MS Constitutions and building accounts and I do not find any of the esoteric teachings many of you forumites keep speculating about!

[Society of No-Homers 0]

It is well known historical fact that early Christianity was heavily influenced by Persian Mithraism, Judasim and the work of St Paul (Saul of Tarsus - a hot bed of Mithraism)

Emperor Constantine prudently promoted the merging of Mithraic practice (popular amongst the roman military) with the burgeoning Christian movement to keep order.

Free masonry, developed from and leaning heavily on Christian doctrine, will obviously therefore inherit Mithraic similarities - we have a proven historic timeline.

Conveniently jumping over 1700 years of documented historical links to propose a more direct, sexy, esoteric link and talk of lost (veiled?) Mithrianic secrets is just silly.

If we have historic event A, that develops through event B, C D and so on through to events X,Y and Z and then someone sees a similarity in event Z and A. Then it is rather silly to conclude that event Z was there and happening all along and A must have developed from it.

[Torrentius 0]

Society of No-Homers (11/05/2012)

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Conveniently jumping over 1700 years of documented historical links to propose a more direct, sexy, esoteric link and talk of lost (veiled?) Mithrianic secrets is just silly.

If we have historic event A, that develops through event B, C D and so on through to events X,Y and Z and then someone sees a similarity in event Z and A. Then it is rather silly to conclude that event Z was there and happening all along and A must have developed from it.

Maybe I'm being over-sensitive here but I would like to emphasise once again, that at no point did I suggest a direct link between Mithraism and Freemasonry. I used it as an example and other posters ran with it. I could have used any one of a dozen other examples which may have jointly and severally influenced Freemasonry.

[Russell Holland 0]

Society of No-Homers (11/05/2012)

Free masonry, developed from and leaning heavily on Christian doctrine, will obviously therefore inherit Mithraic similarities - we have a proven historic timeline......

Leaving aside critiques of what currently passes for history http://www.amazon.com/History-Fiction-Science-Chronology-No/dp/2913621058 , that theory would require every Mithraic practice in Freemasonry also to exist in Christianity.

That hardly seems true. Most of the Mithraic examples given in this thread as closely paralleling Freemasonry cannot be found in Christianity?

[Society of No-Homers 0]

Russell Holland (11/05/2012)

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Society of No-Homers (11/05/2012)
................... that theory would require every Mithraic practice in Freemasonry also to exist in Christianity.

No it wouldn't. Much like the renaissance art movement was fascinated with ancient Roman/Grecian culture and reincorporated classical antiquity back into their art and architecture, the developers of Freemasonry did exactly the same having the historical references already. Hence it was Late 18th century Romanticism movement and Victorian Egyptomania that provided the classical Greek/Roman and Egyptian symbology in the then burgeoning freemason movement - not repressed secrets from an underground Mithraic movement or the pharoahs.

[Not quite so Uninitiated 11]

Rummaging, and following my nose, I've come across the Mysteries of Mithras (https://mom.org.uk/faqs/)

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Who can Join?
If you would like to join the Mysteries of Mithras, you must be a Freemason who is governed or recognised by the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE). This is to ensure that you are of good charcter and that you are in good-standing.

Information on the website is VERY limited, stating little more than:

Quote

 

How often do you meet?
We meet four times a year in March, June, September and December.

Where do you meet?
We are based in the South of England, in the Greater London area. If you would like to join the Mysteries of Mithras, you would need to be able to attend meetings in this area.

 

Is anyone on here a Member, and if so, (by PM if more appropriate) narrow down the dates (1st Mon in June, sort of thing) and location... and rough costs of membership?