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Ozymandius

Non Masonic Orders for Masons

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How many Orders are there that are not Masonic but that require a member to be a Mason?

I know the SRIA falls into this category but what others are there?

 

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A matter of opinion I know but TO ME the majority of Appendant Bodies are not actually Masonic in nature or content other than the fact that they recruit from the ranks of Freemasonry

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That's a bit strong, Mike. Where do you draw the line? I would regard the Solomonic Orders as definitely Masonic and some others grew out of old operative practices. On the other hand it could be argued that the Christian orders (other, possibly, than ROS) were founded FOR masons but do not have an operative ancestry as such. Where would you put the new boy, Athelstan, for example?

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UGLE - Aims and relationships of the craft and GLoI - Declaration,  both these Grand Lodges inform under item 9. This Grand Lodge is a Sovereign and independent Body practising Freemasonry only within the three Degrees and only with the limits defined in its Constitution as “pure Ancient Masonry”. It does not recognise or admit the existence of any superior Masonic authority, however styled.

It is from this i also deem Appendant Bodies in same manner as Mike. Not actually Masonic in nature but their members can only be recruited from craft membership.

 

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I’m in a number of other Masonic orders, and — with the exception of SRIA, which is not Masonic but recruits only Master Masons — they consider themselves, and I consider them, to be Masonic. UGLE might like to think it has the Masonic monopoly, but that sort of thinking is of no interest to me.

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There was a statement from UGLE some years ago making it clear that the "standard" appendant degrees, mainly those run from MMH and Duke Street, while not "recognised", were nevertheless perfectly acceptable for Masons to join. There is no suggestion that they are not Masonic. I seem to remember that Prince Michael, as Mark Grand Master, stood next to his brother at the 250th celebration.

I belong to Mark, RAM and AMD. They all teach lessons of morality which fit in perfectly well with those in the Craft degrees.

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The interesting contradiction for me is with something like KT, which was practiced in Preceptories opened in Craft Lodges (ie Thos Dunkerley in Pompey) or the ne plus Ultra degrees in Cornwall and Newcastle , or the Baldwyn Rite. Specifically the Mark degrees which are not part of UGLE Masonry because the members of Bon Accord wanted their own GL........these degrees which were once practiced in Craft lodges or bodies opened within a Craft Lodge must surely be able to be described as Masonic whilst not forming part of UGLE Masonry.


I fully accept UGLEs definition of what Craft Freemasonry is, but the question (in my eyes) whether a degree or order maybe be broadly described as Masonic is different to what specifically constitutes part of Craft Masonry under UGLE.



 

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11 minutes ago, 3GP441 said:

I fully accept UGLEs definition of what Craft Freemasonry is, but the question (in my eyes) whether a degree or order maybe be broadly described as Masonic is different to what specifically constitutes part of Craft Masonry under UGLE.
 

Exactly. I don't think anyone would dispute what Craft Freemasonry is, but plenty would dispute that there is no Freemasonry outside the Craft.

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I wouldn't go as far as that, Lew.  A union had to happen and the Duke needed to keep everyone focussed on that and making it stick.  There was much dissent; one example resulted in the Grand Lodge of Wigan.  To keep that focus going, he made himself head of all the other orders and just sat on them so there would be no distraction from the main purpose.  By the time he died 30 years later, much of the animosity had evaporated enabling other orders to set themselves up one way or another.  I believe he did a good job in holding the union together.  The petty squabbles were down to that old enemy - ego - 'I'm right, you're wrong'.  Just imagine if we still had two mainstream Grand Lodges for ever bickering at each other over little details and finding fault.  What a mess that would be!

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One of the basic requirements of craft freemasonry is that we accept all men “irrespective of their race, religion or any other perceived differences that can divide us as a society”

It logically follows that any order that restricts its membership to adherents of any particular religion cannot be regarded as truly Masonic.

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10 minutes ago, yorksmason said:

One of the basic requirements of craft freemasonry is that we accept all men “irrespective of their race, religion or any other perceived differences that can divide us as a society”

It logically follows that any order that restricts its membership to adherents of any particular religion cannot be regarded as truly Masonic.

Completely disagree with that view.  Rose Croix being a Christian order is undoubtedly Masonic.

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2 hours ago, yorksmason said:

One of the basic requirements of craft freemasonry is that we accept all men “irrespective of their race, religion or any other perceived differences that can divide us as a society”

It logically follows that any order that restricts its membership to adherents of any particular religion cannot be regarded as truly Masonic.

Only since the de-Christianisation of the Craft by the Moderns/Duke of Sussex.

Where is the quote from Yorkmason?

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2 hours ago, yorksmason said:

It logically follows that any order that restricts its membership to adherents of any particular religion cannot be regarded as truly Masonic.

So, following your logic, Scandinavian Freemasonry is not truly Masonic.

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9 hours ago, 3GP441 said:

Only since the de-Christianisation of the Craft by the Moderns/Duke of Sussex.

Where is the quote from Yorkmason?

From the UGLE website.

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9 hours ago, DavidGoode said:

So, following your logic, Scandinavian Freemasonry is not truly Masonic.

I don’t have a sufficient depth of knowledge of Scandinavian (or any other Freemasonry apart from that practiced in England and Wales) to be able to answer that fully. The thread, however, is about side degrees so I’ll stick with that for the moment.

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12 hours ago, Sentience said:

Completely disagree with that view.  Rose Croix being a Christian order is undoubtedly Masonic.

Can you define “undoubtably “?

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3 hours ago, yorksmason said:

From the UGLE website.

Interesting... in their quest to be inclusive, has UGLE dropped their requirement for a belief in Supreme Being?

Rejecting those with Religion=None would appear to be contrary to “irrespective of their race, religion or any other perceived differences that can divide us as a society”

 

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On 28/03/2020 at 15:25, Lagavara1 said:

UGLE - Aims and relationships of the craft and GLoI - Declaration,  both these Grand Lodges inform under item 9. This Grand Lodge is a Sovereign and independent Body practising Freemasonry only within the three Degrees and only with the limits defined in its Constitution as “pure Ancient Masonry”. It does not recognise or admit the existence of any superior Masonic authority, however styled.

It is from this i also deem Appendant Bodies in same manner as Mike. Not actually Masonic in nature but their members can only be recruited from craft membership.

 

As I understand it, in Scotland the Mark degree is performed in Craft Lodges and Royal Arch Chapters.  So, clearly, GLoS considers the Mark Degree to be Masonic.

As I understand it, in the US the Cryptic and the Templar Degrees are clearly considered to be Masonic by the York Rite Grand Lodges...

 

As others have stated, UGLE is not Masonry, even in the UK

Edited by Not quite so Uninitiated

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Let's clear up a bit of confusion here.  UGLE is concerned only with the three Craft degrees including the HRA as a closely associated branch.  It is not concerned with any others.  This does not mean that the orders and degrees outside UGLE's bailiwick are non-masonic.  On the contrary, UGLE is in amity with many other orders and degrees which do not encroach upon those which it administers within the territory of England and Wales.  Remember, UGLE is basically an administrative body, self-limiting to what I've mentioned above.

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8 hours ago, yorksmason said:

I don’t have a sufficient depth of knowledge of Scandinavian (or any other Freemasonry apart from that practiced in England and Wales) to be able to answer that fully.

You don't need to; Scandinavian FM requires its members to be Christians.

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3 hours ago, Sentience said:

If you join the Ancient and Accepted Rite, you'll understand why.

But unless I professed the Trinitarian Christian faith  they wouldn’t accept me.

Edited by yorksmason

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