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Serpion

New Lodge set up

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Greetings Brethren,

I am new to this forum and I have a couple of questions. I am a PM in a London Lodge and I wish to look into the possibility of creating a  new Lodge that should be under the jurisdiction of either the GL of Scotland or GL of Ireland.  Do you know whether this has been done by others ? What are in your view or experience ,  the pros and cons ?

I do not know where all the admin rules etc. of this nature can be sourced. Any suggestions  and contacts ?

One last question : where do I find out the duties of a Provincial Steward do and how is one elected to become one ?

If possible DM with your replies.

Sincerely & Fraternally

Len

 

 

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If you're talking about creating a new lodge in London under anything other than UGLE, forget it; it will not be allowed. If it's to be created in either Scotland or Ireland, then you'd have to ask the appropriate authorities there as I doubt there are many on here who could anwser your question.

Insofar as to your question about Provincial Stewards, as per the other Provincial Officers, their appointment is the sole choice of the ProvGM, and is most likely down to your Visitng Officer's recommendation (assuming you have them in your Province). In no case are you recommended for a particular office, only for appointment to Provincial Grand Rank.

The only case where a Steward is recommended, are Grand Stewards, where the relevant lodges are INVITED to put a name forward (normally the ruling Master), but even then, there's no guarantee he will be accepted.

As far as the duties are concerned, that varies from Province to Province, but nominally, escorting the rulers and acting as ADC, organising Provincial meetings, setting up said meetings etc. Basically you would be the manual labourer for the Province, and the general dog's body.

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13 hours ago, Serpion said:

I wish to look into the possibility of creating a  new Lodge that should be under the jurisdiction of either the GL of Scotland or GL of Ireland.

It seems in the Uk the 3 Grand Lodges (English, Irish and Scottish) have their own Constitutions in their own Country.

That's not saying you can't. You would need to go through your Provincial Secretary.

I'm in an EC lodge in Malaysia where we have all 3 Constitutions operating here as well as all the various Side Degrees.

 

 

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Thank you Brethren for your answers.   But where has freedom gone ?🙄 Surely I should not have to submit to UGLE if I happen to live and work in England but  I may not be English.  But there we go. 

It is a matter of keeping control, I assume, since  they can t monitor what you do in their warranted Lodge located so far away from their home and can t send their officers to attend the meetings.  Food for thought.

Prov.Stewards

Mmmh. I see why they are mostly recruited young and enthusiastic. I will put my interest in the red apron to rest 😉 

 

   

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23 hours ago, Serpion said:

Greetings Brethren,

I am new to this forum and I have a couple of questions. I am a PM in a London Lodge and I wish to look into the possibility of creating a  new Lodge that should be under the jurisdiction of either the GL of Scotland or GL of Ireland.  Do you know whether this has been done by others ? What are in your view or experience ,  the pros and cons ?

I do not know where all the admin rules etc. of this nature can be sourced. Any suggestions  and contacts ?

One last question : where do I find out the duties of a Provincial Steward do and how is one elected to become one ?

If possible DM with your replies.

Sincerely & Fraternally

Len

 

 

There's a little thing called 'Territorial Exclusivity', whereby in any geographical area there ought to be only one Grand Lodge.  That applies strictly in the British Isles amongst the 'Home' Grand Lodges (England & Wales incl. Channel Islands, Scotland and Ireland) but overseas there are many areas where several Grand Lodges hold sway at the same time.  By the way, I used the term 'British Isles' because the whole of the island of Ireland is under the one Grand Lodge of Ireland - there is no north and south there masonically.  You will get some idea of how the relationship works between the home GLs when you read 'Aims and Relationships of the Craft' and 'Basic Principles for Grand Lodge Recognition' in the front of the UGLE Book of Constitutions.  The same declarations are to be found in the other two GLs' Constitutions.  The situation and agreed customs have a long history stemming from the dispersal of Freemasonry throughout the previous Empire and Colonies, mainly by the troops.  The officer class tended to be English, while the cannon fodder were Scots and Irish!  This is one of the chief reasons that so many recognised foreign Grand Lodges are of Scottish or Irish origin.  There's a lot of reading to be done, as with Freemasonry generally, to understand how it all works.  But work, it does; there are inconsistencies and anomalies but they make life interesting.

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23 hours ago, Serpion said:

Greetings Brethren,

One last question : where do I find out the duties of a Provincial Steward do and how is one elected to become one ?

 

The position is as 'Sontaran' says.  Recommendation methods for appointment to or promotion in Provincial Grand Rank varies from province to province.  The appointment itself is in the gift of the ProvGM himself, within the limits set out in the UGLE Book of Constitutions rule 68 for active offices.

As to Grand Stewards, there's again a long history involved.  See 'Grand Stewards' in the Index to the UGLE Book of Constitutions.  Very briefly, in the early 18th century, the then Grand Lodge appointed six Grand Stewards each year to manage the annual assembly and feast in London.  Later that was expanded to twelve and then to nineteen.  Each of the nineteen 'Red Apron' lodges had and still have the privilege of appointing one of its members to serve for the year.  If a lodge fails to do so, then it loses the privilege.  Privilege??  If there's a shortfall in the money for the Annual Feast, the Grand Stewards have to stump up from their own pockets!  Also it is worth noting that a Grand Steward is only a Grand Officer for that one year of service; afterwards he is no longer a Grand Officer.

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3 hours ago, Trouillogan said:

Recommendation methods for appointment to or promotion in Provincial Grand Rank varies from province to province.  The appointment itself is in the gift of the ProvGM himself, within the limits set out in the UGLE Book of Constitutions rule 68 for active offices.

(...)

I see . But where are the criterias for the appointment, if they exist ?

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4 hours ago, Trouillogan said:

There's a little thing called 'Territorial Exclusivity', whereby in any geographical area there ought to be only one Grand Lodge.  That applies strictly in the British Isles amongst the 'Home' Grand Lodges (England & Wales incl. Channel Islands, Scotland and Ireland) but overseas there are many areas where several Grand Lodges hold sway at the same time.

So in theory it should be easier to found in England, Scotland or Ireland a Lodge from an Overseas Obedience ?

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7 hours ago, Serpion said:

I see . But where are the criterias for the appointment, if they exist ?

As with all Provincial appointments, they are the gift of the Provincial Grand Master - aided by is advisors.  Different provinces have different criteria.

For example, in Hampshire and Isle of Wight, (active) Stewards are typically younger, just-out-of-the-chair, first-time Masters - they become the general duties bods while in Red, and usually become Active ProvADCs or ProvDeacons a few years later and then into other Provincial roles... Hampshire can award 17 ProvStwds a year, but with 255 Lodges that makes it quite an honour. Hampshire does not award PProvStwd.

Edited by Not quite so Uninitiated

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11 hours ago, Serpion said:

So in theory it should be easier to found in England, Scotland or Ireland a Lodge from an Overseas Obedience ?

Quite the reverse!  As there is already the United Grand Lodge of England, no other Grand Lodge can be set up here and be recognised as legitimate.  Nor could you erect a lodge here that works under a different recognised Grand Lodge.  That agreement for exclusivity extends to the other two home Grand Lodges as well.  There is but one exception and one only, for historical reasons.  Lodge Glittering Star is a lodge warranted by and working under the Grand Lodge of Ireland has permission to work in England and Wales.  It was a lodge in a British army regiment dating from the time that the whole island of Ireland was a British possession and it continues here today.

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Also to set up a new Lodge you would need the appropriate number of other Masons of sufficient rank as defined by the regulations laid down by the Masonic authority you wish to form a Lodge under.

I cannot see such a project coming to fruition.

My question is, assuming that you hail from either Scotland or Ireland, and that you are determined to set up a new Lodge; what is the issue of forming a Lodge under the authority which rules the area you are in?

Freemasonry is universal and the although there is slight variation in form between the three home GLs the content is consistent. 

Edited by 3GP441
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11 hours ago, Serpion said:

I see . But where are the criterias for the appointment, if they exist ?

As has been said, the criteria differ between provinces.  In some, a purely factual approach is taken concerning occupancy of the Chair, ritual or other work undertaken and recorded in minutes.  Special consideration is given to a brother who has done exception charity or other work but has not occupied the Chair of a lodge.  In another province, lodges may have a committee for recommendations to be made to the province, in addition to the above.  In yet another, instead of a lodge committee the lodge secretary may make recommendations, again in addition to the above.  Etc., etc.  Note that these all result in recommendations to the province.  The province will have a committee or individual who filters the recommendations so as to advise the ProvGM.

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ProvGStwds and PPGStwds can petition for a Lodge of Provincial Grand Stewards if one doesn't exist and there is call for one.  You can't just set up a Stewards Lodge because you want to wear the coveted red regalia of which we are very proud.

The role of ProvGStwd seems to differ from Province to Province.  I can only speak for my own where it is seen as an opportunity to reward PMs showing promise with early honours.  Duties range from escorting the Provincial representative at Provincial visits, acting as building and car park security on open days and Provincial Grand Lodge etc, and generally assisting with events.  There have been those few who vainly view it as the lowest office, but fail to observe that it is an Active Office and that you're usually promoted to PPSGD or PPJGD 12 months later.  Given the choice of early Active honours or waiting 6 years to be promoted to PPSGD, I'll take the former.

Edited by Sentience

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On 21/02/2021 at 21:02, Serpion said:

One last question : where do I find out the duties of a Provincial Steward do and how is one elected to become one ?

Hi there,

As you state that you're a PM of a London Lodge without mentioning that status within a Province I assume that you actually mean a Metropolitan Grand Steward? I am a little surprised that as a PM you are unaware of the roles of your own Lodge's Visiting Officer and Senior VO in the process of recommending "merit" on behalf of your Lodge to the Office of the Met. Grand Master for consideration.

The question of setting up a "foreign" Lodge in England has been well covered and I would only highlight the fact that the three "Home Grand Lodges" actually work very closely together and would not dream of setting up Lodges in each others geographical territories, which is why Lodges in Northern Ireland are actually under the Grand Lodge of Ireland.

PS as a London Mason you have access to Rosetta in order to research these things.

 

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Hello Serpion,

Re - Your interest in starting a new Lodge under the jurisdiction of Ireland or Scotland.

Personally, with the 'knowledge' gained from being a PM / PK and PP in the Irish Constitution, and if i could recommence my masonic pathway i would join an Order of masonry for men and women.

That would be - International Ordre of Freemasonry for Men and Woman / Le Droit Humain - British Federation , which sit in England and Ireland.  And similarly is the Grand Lodge of Hibernia - Ireland only.

When a renowned leading UGLE masonic member of recent years jumped ship and explained why - I knew that i could have joined better !

Best wishes on your pathway.

Lagavara1    

 

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Just to add to the info that Trouillogan posted.

St. Patricks lodge 295 (the oldest  travelling military lodge), also warranted by the GL of Ireland meets in Warminster, Wiltshire.

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10 hours ago, Mike Martin said:

I am a little surprised that as a PM you are unaware of the roles of your own Lodge's Visiting Officer and Senior VO in the process of recommending "merit" on behalf of your Lodge to the Office of the Met. Grand Master for consideration.

PS as a London Mason you have access to Rosetta in order to research these things.

 

Nothing ever mentioned to me in 9+years.  Admin  has always seemed to be the domain of the Lodge Secretary who keeps all the cards close to his chest. And we know why , don't we ? 😉 I asked once the Visiting Officer I was sitting next to at a FB  whether the notes he making were to mark the ritual performance of the  the Lodge officers but the matter was dismissed lightly with no real answer. 

Rosetta ? I thought it was a program for Lodge Secretaries. Could you give me a tip on  how to access it ?

This is not the place for me to explain why I am in this situation of admittedly, ignorance. Indeed I would not explain them anyway because of the reflection this would have on my Brethren. I was taught to be cautious. But I only say to you: do not be surprised.

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12 hours ago, Serpion said:

Rosetta ? I thought it was a program for Lodge Secretaries. Could you give me a tip on  how to access it ?

Hmmm, I suspect that you're not actually a London Mason, which Lodge are you a member of?

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I m but not for the Craft but for the RA. 

But thanks to the suggestion I m now registered with and can access Rosetta since yesterday. 👌

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25 minutes ago, Sentience said:

In all honesty, I find it hard to understand that a PM does not know what the red regalia was for and how Provincial honours are decided.

Then , i m sorry to say, you do not know the current  situation of the Craft, the result of recruit recruit recruit policy and the must have 3 rituals every year.

 

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13 hours ago, Serpion said:

I m but not for the Craft but for the RA. 

But thanks to the suggestion I m now registered with and can access Rosetta since yesterday. 👌

Ahh, so PM in a Province and PZ in London?

This would distract when it comes to "honours" as here under MetGL they are not quite as "automated" as they seem to be in some Provinces and are related to your potential future service to "London Masonry" as well as your past. You need to be at least 5 years out of the Chair of a London Lodge and active to have your name put forward to be considered here.

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19 minutes ago, Serpion said:

Then , i m sorry to say, you do not know the current  situation of the Craft, the result of recruit recruit recruit policy and the must have 3 rituals every year.

It's an old lament but offered to you in good faith, be careful not to extrapolate your own personal experiences of Freemasonry to all of Freemasonry. What your Lodge, or even your Province, does is not necessarily what is done in the other approximately 7,000 Lodges under the other 46 Provinces and Met GL of the UGLE.

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